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whitetigergrowl
August 22nd, 2010, 08:34 PM
It seems to me it's kinda grinded to a halt. The blog at the top is very outdated in terms of activity. Photopost seems to be losing it's luster with no new developments mentioned that I have seen. It seems to be falling behind in many areas.

Is there something new on the horizon, or is Photopost slowly heading to the graveyard?

DefenceTalk.com
August 22nd, 2010, 09:47 PM
Well, I think improvements have been made from 5.0 to 6.0 and now 7.0 but a lot needs to be done for PP to stay in competition.

I have 4 or 5 licenses and I would not like to see the product go away. I think it would be wise for PP administration to go after innovative ideas and how pictures/galleries are being delivered across the web by flickr, wordpress plugins, to name a few.

PP will have to step it up a notch, and not waste time on kiddie, newbie features like flash uploader!!! As they say, content is king and today, as more and more people generate content in form of articles, they need pictures in their articles to make it more attractive for their readers. With modern galleries, people can easily embed entire categories (thumbnails) within their articles but NOT with PP.

Same functionality should be extended to allow other sites, blogs to embed galleries on their websites, EASILY and with auto generated code by PP. We've been using RSS at Auto Talk (http://www.autotalk.com) but had to pay for modifications to rss feed and how its displayed. Not a good deal for users just looking to add some flavor to their site without paying and modifying the code.

I would also like to see PP look into integration with wordpress. It would be a HUGE market for photopost and surprised its not been tapped by Enthusiasts Inc. yet!

Chuck S
August 23rd, 2010, 09:09 AM
well as wordpress changes we will look at it

I know awhile back when it was young I looked at it and really got no help from wordpress and got stuck on the final piece of the puzzle. That is reading the cookie and creating the wordpress cookie.

I could never find in there files where the code was to create those encrypted cookie strings so it was near impossible to write an integration as a result.

peppies
August 25th, 2010, 08:28 PM
Chuck, it seems you missed the point of this thread called "Whats happening with Photopost". There are a few threads now in this forum discussing this very issue about the software being outdated and not much happening on the development front. What we would like you to do is to reveal Photopost future plans, if there are any updates and features going to happen any time soon. What can we expect by the end of 2010 and in 2011? Thanks.

Chuck S
August 25th, 2010, 08:32 PM
Peppies alot of development has happening in the past couple years and any improvements are noted in the release announcements forum.

There is nothing more to report since 7.x series was released 8 month ago and we have no open beta for Pro right now as development phase is centered in vbGallery beta right now.

CaddisNJF
August 26th, 2010, 11:56 AM
Peppies alot of development has happening in the past couple years and any improvements are noted in the release announcements forum.

There is nothing more to report since 7.x series was released 8 month ago and we have no open beta for Pro right now as development phase is centered in vbGallery beta right now.Just noticed that I've been a member of this forum before you!

Anyhow, the bottom line is that there have been a lot of little changes here and there. Overall I'm happy with the product but, the appearance needs a makeover and some additionally mentioned functions / features should really be looked into.

The forums are stale which means you can't be doing too well in the sales dept. If you were, I would imagine the tech support forums would be bombarded with queries like in the past. Then again, if everyone is disabled (like me) I could understand how you keep those disgruntled posts at a minimum.

Seriously though... Are there any plans to do something new with this product or will it look like a 1984 Camaro forever? We need some innovation here. I'm sorry to say that this will most certainly be my last donation unless something drastically changes... but hey, it's only $40.00 bux right?

Chuck S
August 26th, 2010, 12:16 PM
Dennis yes you have been around awhile so you definately know how things work. Anyone who has participated in our beta cycles knows our company listens to its customers and most all features and additions to the programs are customer requests.

I see people here saying the product needs a face lift but if I visit our suggestions forum I really don't see any specific ideas. I would like to see customer ideas on how they think things should look.

Nothing is going to change with Pro at this current time until we enter a beta period for that product which is probally later this year. What I would suggest to anyone looking at this thread is if you have specific ideas feel free to post suggestions in the PhotoPost Pro suggestions forum.

Constructive Criticism is great and I love it personally but just saying I don't like the interface or how things look outdated doesnt really say anything specfic. That is like someone asking for support and saying I can't upload. ;) Please post suggestions in the proper forum on specifically what you would like to see.

CaddisNJF
August 26th, 2010, 12:36 PM
Dennis yes you have been around awhile so you definately know how things work. Anyone who has participated in our beta cycles knows our company listens to its customers and most all features and additions to the programs are customer requests.

I see people here saying the product needs a face lift but if I visit our suggestions forum I really don't see any specific ideas. I would like to see customer ideas on how they think things should look.

Nothing is going to change with Pro at this current time until we enter a beta period for that product which is probally later this year. What I would suggest to anyone looking at this thread is if you have specific ideas feel free to post suggestions in the PhotoPost Pro suggestions forum.

Constructive Criticism is great and I love it personally but just saying I don't like the interface or how things look outdated doesnt really say anything specfic. That is like someone asking for support and saying I can't upload. ;) Please post suggestions in the proper forum on specifically what you would like to see.:)

Cool... I was looking at another piece of software last night. It looked to be a perfect solution with 1 drawback... No integration with vBulletin. This is really the only reason your product is still on my site. I'll gather the thoughts in this thread and paste them into the suggestions forum. Are you by any chance OCD? Just sayin...

Chuck S
August 26th, 2010, 01:12 PM
I have been called OCD ;)

Geiri
September 2nd, 2010, 05:48 PM
I was just at the vBulletin site and I see that they have a Photo Gallery with Photo Tagging coming in version 5 It might come late 2011 or even early 2012

vBulletin Community Forum (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?361373-What-s-To-Come-For-vBulletin-Part-II)

I think it would be a nice touch now to act, In the suggestion forum there are lots of unused Ideas that are some a few years old.

Some of them are

Option to use foums user profile
Tagging like facebook
share photos on facebook
Better contest mod with voting for first, second and third
Allow user to view only x number of photos before registration
Better template control
Language manager.
Integrate the search engin with vBulletin
Merge users

This is just what comes to mind


I love what is being done to vBgallery but I do not think that Photopost PRO users should have to wait while Photopost vBgallery is developed, Pro is the orginal product and should be the cornerstone and not come in second place.


We can't wait for the competition and see what they will bring, we must stay a head and make them compete with us.

DefenceTalk.com
September 2nd, 2010, 05:56 PM
Other idea which you may consider is the fact that MEDIUM picture is under 3-4 bars.

You have the navbar, the pp menu, then the pp breadcrumb links, etc.

Maybe that approach should be changed. Bring the MEDIUM picture just below the vbulletin navbar, make a 300px column on right or left of the picture which replace the pp links. Also, PP breadcrumb should be where vbulletin breadcrumb is.

Instead of having option for 1 or 3 rows in filmstrip, make it more flexible.

Expand RSS feed option for tags. Well before that happens, make tags more like how the rest of the world/web uses them (look at modern CMSes like wordpress, joomla, etc.) .

TOTAL integration of comments and discussions with vbulletin. If someone wants to comment on the picture, open a thread for them or redirect them to a forum on vbulletin side and open a thread linking the medium picture back to the pp side instead of having admins/mods moderate two forums/discussions.

Alfa1
September 4th, 2010, 04:29 AM
I haven't bought a licence renewal for some time and I am still at version 6. Currently I see no need to upgrade, because I see no appealing features in PP 7. PP is a good gallery, but misses a lot of integration with vbulletin and as others have mentioned in this thread, the interface and feature set is outdated.

The lack of integration causes my users to miss new photos and barely anyone discusses photo's on PP. Mind that I have a big board. Combining vbulletin with PP will result in 3 image systems: attachments, albums and photopost. That adds a lot of confusion and hassle to the user.

I do think a flashuploader is a good improvement. I remember drooling over it back in 2005. Nice to see it will be a reality now.

What I am missing:

Make PP a vbulletin content type.
Use vbulletin comments.
Integrate with vbulletin search and 'what's new' button.
Add vb reputation to entries.
Integrate with or replace vbulletin profile albums.
Integrate with the attachment manager.
Integrate with groups images and blog images.
vb widgets and forums side blocks
integrate with vbulletin tags
A number of Image Sliders and Content Sliders to display in vbadvanced and vbCMS
pictorials / tutorials
carousels & accordions
import albums from flickr, etc.
YUI, jQuery enhancements to the UI
iPhone / android widget
Google Image search enhancements / sitemap


A careful review of wordpress plugins, flickr and the modern UI of imagevuex will give you a good idea of what features are missing.

I do think that with vbulletin image gallery coming up, PP really needs to outperform it by far to stay attractive. The vb image gallery will be available in the suite for no additional cost. PP has been one of the top products for quite a while because there was little real competition and PP had most of the modern functionality until some years ago.

Chuck S
September 4th, 2010, 11:37 AM
Well just a point of clarification on some things here.

Now in vb4 there are tons of blocks and content that can be displayed in the actual forum or CMS. I know I wrote the hacks for those and they are posted in the MOD FORUMS. That mod actually shows gallery stuff in the vb user profile. Basically one little option added to Photopost's options for a switch and a line or two of code in the global file in the construct ppurl function and we can send users to the forum profile that is easy and I think I can see that happening easily in the next version. I plan to do that in Reviewpost and Classifieds once I open betas on them. A language manager has been part of Reviewpost and Classifieds for some time so I would think some of that stuff should be added to Pro.

There are alot of nice ideas above although some actually deal with displaying our content outside of our own program which is really mod discussions. There will be some new updated features added I am sure but the next release I think is going to be streamlining and updating the interface as right now thats the top priority I hear from customers.

I know things I am looking at right now for all programs are going to be new integrations like wordpress and xenforo etc because alot of people are jumping ship from vBulletin over the version 4 fiasco. Other things I am looking at personally is using the vb comment interface throughout the program just not comments. Redoing all the templates diving deeper into the vb4 styles now that vb4 has had time to settle down some with there bugs.

Gladhatter
September 4th, 2010, 10:55 PM
Sorry if I am posting in the wrong area. I am a bit confused but that never stopped me before.

ChuckS you seem the man with the plan and eye for the future. I have my Photo POST installs hacked to the point they likely cannot be recognized as your products any more to the outsider. Maybe we have a lot you could use. Not sure. You would be welcome to any of it.

My only question here is: Can you divulge who the 3rd party plug-in for the flash uploader is? I am about to install a flash uploader and then learned you have one so I upgraded here I guess it was to your latest release. Now I see it does not work with flash 10 but expect that will be fixed.

Anywho... Are you using uploadify or another? I will surely need to hack it to death as well to use it for our customized needs and knowing who makes it may help me do so....

I say me and I am not a coder but hire it all done.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Charlie

Chuck S
September 5th, 2010, 08:43 AM
Charlie the flash upload makers are listed in the change log file in the documentation folder of the downloaded code.

DefenceTalk.com
September 5th, 2010, 03:35 PM
And PLEASE clean up the URLs when using SEO:

defencetalk.com/pictures/b-228usa-29/p38379-usaf-b-2-spirit-stealth-bomber.html

The part after /pictures/ looks really screwed up and ugly. If category name has "parentheses" then they are replaced by "28name-29," totally ridiculous.

Gladhatter
September 6th, 2010, 02:20 PM
Charlie the flash upload makers are listed in the change log file in the documentation folder of the downloaded code.

Thank you Chuck. Even I should be able to find this without my coder.

Side note if there are any advanced VB and PP coders out there reading this seeking work, please contact me. gladhatter@gladhatter.net if I am allowed to post this. If not please edit my post.

Gladhatter
September 6th, 2010, 02:25 PM
Charlie the flash upload makers are listed in the change log file in the documentation folder of the downloaded code.


I guess I have my products confused as per usual We run the older versions of this and are upgrading now to this: product_vbgallery3_RC2

Does this have the flash uploader and if so please tell me where to find the maker of it?

Gladhatter
September 6th, 2010, 02:29 PM
There is clearly a flash uploader in there: E:\Download folder\product_vbgallery3_RC2\product_vbgallery3_RC2\upload\gallery\clientscript\flash However I cannot find any documentation folder or change log. ????

Please help.

Chuck S
September 6th, 2010, 03:33 PM
I am not sure what documentation the beta has but you can ask questions about the beta in the beta forum.

The flash uploader should be SWFUpload

Gladhatter
September 6th, 2010, 03:40 PM
Thank you Chuck. I found all the info I required on it now with enough searching the files.

I am quite convinced this flash uploader offers some wonderful promise and is certainly a valid solution. Only sorry I did not find this or a similar one before spending 1000's on a Java applet.

Gladhatter
September 6th, 2010, 03:47 PM
I am not sure what documentation the beta has but you can ask questions about the beta in the beta forum.

The flash uploader should be SWFUpload


Yes it is the SWFUload and seems grand.

I do not see any beta forums and only a couple that are not locked to me. Maybe I am missing something.

Alfa1
September 6th, 2010, 04:26 PM
And PLEASE clean up the URLs when using SEO:

defencetalk.com/pictures/b-228usa-29/p38379-usaf-b-2-spirit-stealth-bomber.html

The part after /pictures/ looks really screwed up and ugly. If category name has "parentheses" then they are replaced by "28name-29," totally ridiculous.
Would be nice to do:
images.defencetalk.com/38379-usaf-b-2-spirit-stealth-bomber.html
or
defencetalk.com/pictures/38379-usaf-b-2-spirit-stealth-bomber.html

DefenceTalk.com
September 6th, 2010, 05:19 PM
Would be nice to do:
images.defencetalk.com/38379-usaf-b-2-spirit-stealth-bomber.html
or
defencetalk.com/pictures/38379-usaf-b-2-spirit-stealth-bomber.html


Yes. I use this format on wordpress and vbulletin:

domainname.com/name-of-the-post-postID/

defencetalk.com/pictures/usaf-b-2-spirit-stealth-bomber-38379/

So, it would be nice if PP can do the same and had a flexibile URL system much like wordpress and vbulletin (vbseo).

I hope this issue is fixed in next version!

Chuck S
September 7th, 2010, 08:56 AM
Our SEO urls are built like most forum seo urls. I have vbulletin and there seo and ours are basically identical to there rewrite urls.

Now I gave you a replacement in your support thread on how to get rid of parantheses in catnames in url

Michael P
September 7th, 2010, 07:01 PM
PhotoPost has been around for a long time, I wouldn't get to amped up over a promise of a photo gallery in 12-18 months from vB that only has the option of "tagging". So many layers of features have been added over the years based on direct feedback of our users - to say flash uploader is not a big deal would be to discount all the people who were asking for it.

What's being discussed is a revamp of the UI. Much like the forum/gallery layout, its very difficult to get 10 people together to agree on a single format. Beyond that, everyone wants every feature or layout to be included in a redesign. And therein lies the biggest challenge for Photopost - having 10k+ users and trying to make everyone happy.

Alfa1
September 7th, 2010, 07:34 PM
vbulletin users have the problem to solve of scattering of image functionality over attachments, vbulletin albums and photopost. It's a major problem. And a vbulletin image gallery will solve that.

What happened after IP.Gallery was released?

Chuck S
September 7th, 2010, 07:53 PM
what is IP Gallery?

Alfa1
September 7th, 2010, 07:56 PM
IPB's integrated Image Gallery:
IP.Gallery - Integrated Gallery Software For Your IP.Board Community (http://www.invisionpower.com/products/gallery/)

DefenceTalk.com
September 7th, 2010, 08:56 PM
to say flash uploader is not a big deal would be to discount all the people who were asking for it.

How many people were asking for it? What was their age group? Flash uploader does nothing as far as look and useability of the site is concerned when using PP. Some people just want a bar going across which tells them that picture is being uploaded... it doesn't speed up the upload process nor does it give more people to upload/share more often. Moreover, if some newbie user doesn't have flash plugin installed, it adds another layer of support and question/answer session to get them to install that... I know majority of the users on the web have flash plugin installed but still...

More people look at the pictures in all of the PP galleries than upload on those galleries, so shouldn't improving the showphoto be a higher priority?

Now that kids are happy with their flash uploader, can we get some real development done and consider some of the features myself and others have been asking for?

I already spent some money with custom development on PP, I wouldn't want to do that for every single feature.

Thank you.

Chuck S
September 7th, 2010, 09:09 PM
Alfa nothing happened after invisionboards gallery to be honest. If anything it gave us more business. Most customers whom have tries that forums gallery ended up buying licenses from us.

basfilmizle
September 7th, 2010, 11:03 PM
Thank you chuck.

Alfa1
September 8th, 2010, 06:00 AM
Alfa nothing happened after invisionboards gallery to be honest. If anything it gave us more business. Most customers whom have tries that forums gallery ended up buying licenses from us.
Thanks. Though I see that its over 6 years old and has grown over time, so is a bit hard to compare with the vbulletin situation where most vbulletin boards run Photopost Pro simultaneously with with vbulletin albums & attachments.

From the many comments from fellow PP users, I have read on vb.com vb.org and other admin sites, it seems clear that a lot of vb admins will drop PP when they receive a somewhat usable vbulletin gallery. Even when it has less functionality than PP. The lack of integration is just too much of an issue.

Thats also my position. The only thing that would cause me to keep using PP is if there would be a lot of improvements like described above.

Chuck S
September 8th, 2010, 06:21 AM
anyone who has suggestions for upcoming versions feel free to make sure your ideas are here

http://www.photopost.com/forum/photopost-pro-suggestions

Alfa1
September 8th, 2010, 10:52 AM
Can't post there. Sorry.

Chuck S
September 8th, 2010, 04:41 PM
well just stating thats where the developer looks for ideas.

Since there is no beta open yet there is no definative plan for the next version but I do know the one thing left the owner did promise was a facelift or external makeover of the look of the product.

Sola
September 12th, 2010, 10:04 PM
...the one thing left the owner did promise was a facelift or external makeover of the look of the product.He did? Comments here over the years whenever the radical facelift of PP are brought up (beyond all the cosmetics) suggest the owner is really the one not eager to rock the boat, and not the coders. Has he shifted his position? 'Twould be wonderful to confirm.

The problem, Mike, in trying to please everyone, is that your beautiful product stays stagnant and ends up pleasing no one. You become too scared to introduce real advancements because you're worried you will lose some customers. It happens to every product as it grows. You must lose some...TO GAIN OTHERS. You can't keep everybody, guys, no matter how hard you try. Bring the product in conformity with new technologies and ideas. That's what the times call for. PP must go back to the drawing board and re-define the concept from its foundation.

I have used PP and your other products forever and I love PP in particular, but the truth, as bitter as it may sound, is that if another product comes along that dares to positively and creatively stir the waters, I will consider moving. No offense meant.

Chuck S
September 12th, 2010, 10:16 PM
Michael is not the owner Scott is and yes he did promise certain things and the seo and flash uploader where two things and they did come true. Changing things does take time.

Sola
September 13th, 2010, 03:23 PM
Michael is not the owner Scott is...After eight years hereabouts, you think that would be much of a mystery to me, Chuck? Come on, dude...:D

I stay out of these kind of discussion here because they never seem to go far and sometimes end up being misinterpreted. Just remember, it is the things you care for that you bother to push to get better. There are several other applications that you would not find the user-base wasting their time making suggestions and prodding for advancement. Regards.

Chuck S
September 13th, 2010, 03:50 PM
Well you meantioned Michael's name directly referring to the product as his hense my clarification.

Users who participate in our beta programs know user suggestions are very important to us as a commpany. A promise to add certain features etc was made some time ago by the owner and we have stood by that promise adding such features in the last couple versions.

Improving the interface is the last promise that has to be upheld but I think alot of posts here find things progressing two slow. The simple truth is we are a small company that has 4 products. Change takes time as we cycle through the programs and go to beta to develop them. The past year in development has been focused mainly on vbulletin 4 compatibility for the programs.

You being around for eight years you know very well what I have said is true in regards to we listen to customers and add features they want. Probally over half the features on our applications are user suggestions. The only issue I see is we may not be changing things as fast as some customers might want.

I can only say we are looking at making changes to the Pro interface to update things but a beta can not be started for PhotoPost Pro until vbGallery 3 goes final for vbulletin 4.

Michael P
September 16th, 2010, 07:34 PM
Now that kids are happy with their flash uploader, can we get some real development done and consider some of the features myself and others have been asking for?

Honestly, I don't break our customers apart by age group. Anyone who has paid for our product deserves to have their input considered.

Alfa1
September 19th, 2010, 07:46 AM
IPB is releasing a complete overhaul of IP.Gallery this year. In their IP.gallery 4.0 Manifesto (http://community.invisionpower.com/blog/1174/entry-5336-ipgallery-40-manifesto/) they generally describe that IP.Gallery 3 is outdated due to the development of the internet over the years and therefor a full overhaul was needed. Its a very similar situation to photopost.

I have no doubt that the announced vbulletin gallery also plays a factor in this release. If we look at the other software that IP.B has been ramping up in the last year, we see that they have mostly released things that vbulletin license owners wanted or vbulletin announced to release. IP.B then released it faster, better and sometimes free. So with the announcement of vbulletin that they are releasing a Gallery I would not be surprised if IP.Gallery will be a very good, modern release with full fledged gallery functionality that surpasses Photopost Pro.

Revolution
The "truth" of the application is very simple:

Upload some media into an album
View, discuss and share that media.

Our aim is to streamline those processes so that they are intuitive and modern. We're not content with basic static pages anymore. We want to interact with the site like we would a desktop application and the new Gallery delivers that experience.

IP.Gallery 4.0 is a huge upgrade; the single biggest upgrade it has ever seen. We're blasting out the cobwebs and introducing a slick new interface that never loses sight of what a Gallery should be. We're simplifying permissions and accessibility to remove the clutter and confusion.

We want you to fall in love with Gallery again.

When will you be able to post a similar announcement for Photopost Pro? I would love to see that happening.

Trews
October 12th, 2010, 05:03 AM
IPB is releasing a complete overhaul of IP.Gallery Blah-blah-bla....


When will you be able to post a similar announcement for Photopost Pro? I would love to see that happening.
I left IPB because of their yearly overhauls and coding revolutions.
Better keep things steady .

Alfa1
October 12th, 2010, 01:20 PM
Forums are falling out of grace. They need to keep up with the times. The same goes for image galleries. its a bit hard for a photopost gallery to compete with flickr and related modern functionality.

Sometimes its good to exaggerate a little to make a point more clear: Imagine how it would be to use ubb from 1999 nowadays and compete with boards running xenforo and IPB. Falling behind the times is a problem when you are in the race for attracting internet users and aiming for growth.

If a good system is outdated in regard to modern demand, then it needs to be updated. Why would anyone want to use a third party image gallery, if their forum software already provides an image gallery? I think the answer is: because the third party image gallery outperforms the default image gallery.
So if thats the reason for photopost pro customers to use it, then this relation to default image galleries needs to be kept a close eye on.

jkelley
October 16th, 2010, 10:48 PM
well i may sound like a total novice here (oh yeah i am) but i have some great and some really not so great things to say about PP.

My business partner and i just built (had it built) for us. we r using vb 3.6 (because has too many bugs) PP 7.02 and wordpress. my web designer did have issues with the WP part but got it worked out after about 3 days.

now i'm guessing our business is different from most who i've seen post here. we own a digital scrapbooking store. and i have to say in OUR business 98% of the galleries are PP and our customers like consistency. it does what we want and need from a gallery. So props.

what i would like to see improved is integration into the VB admin panel so i don't have to go back and forth.

also...someone needs to update the support info. while the info is great and i can follow anything it says it leaves a whole lot out. i currently have 5 issues i can't figure out and am having a nervous breakdown over it. the major one being we can't open the site up for business until the "gallery only avatars" quit showing the IP address under them. i am not getting sued that's for sure.

i don't know what support came with our purchase (we have had it about a month) but i'd sure like it to be more clear where i can get help.

Trews
October 17th, 2010, 07:29 AM
Forums are falling out of grace. They need to keep up with the times. The same goes for image galleries. its a bit hard for a photopost gallery to compete with flickr and related modern functionality.

IMHO. Forums should stay as forums. What modern forums need is a good photo-gallery(Photo-Forum) and secure PM. Nothing more.

Michael P
October 19th, 2010, 06:11 PM
the major one being we can't open the site up for business until the "gallery only avatars" quit showing the IP address under them. i am not getting sued that's for sure.

First off, the only people who can see IP addresses are Admins and mods; secondly, you cant be sued for displaying an IP address (on what basis?).

Regardless, you dont have to worry, only your trusted Admin/mods can see that info.

jalmz
October 28th, 2010, 02:12 AM
My Wishlist

1. Facebook Integration - Log in with Facebook, Facebook Like, Share

2. Twitter Button and other social media

3. STABLE Photo Upload using Flash. Like Wordpress and Coppermine.

4. Ajax Photo view, next and back shud be ajax.

5. SEO - image sitemap, seo header meta tags

6. CSS - table less

7. Advertisement Block - Like Vbulletin

8. Flash Slide Show

Ramses
October 28th, 2010, 06:04 AM
My Wishlist

1. Facebook Integration - Log in with Facebook, Facebook Like, Share

2. Twitter Button and other social media

3. STABLE Photo Upload using Flash. Like Wordpress and Coppermine.

4. Ajax Photo view, next and back shud be ajax.

5. SEO - image sitemap, seo header meta tags

6. CSS - table less

7. Advertisement Block - Like Vbulletin

8. Flash Slide Show
4-7 I can agree, but flash isn't really an advantage.

Chuck S
October 28th, 2010, 07:39 AM
yeah flash is slow look at places like facebook yuck

anyway now that vbGallery is out of beta we are going to work on PhotoPost Pro. Now there is no list of what we will or will not ad as stuff like above most of the stuff are minor except maybe a template redesign.

The one main core thing we are working on for sure and will take most of the time is going to be a UI redesign which was promised to customers before all this vb4 support stuff began. This will be a major undertaking.

Alfa1
November 1st, 2010, 05:47 PM
Just general heads up regarding IP.Gallery 4: Please watch their latest videos (http://community.invisionpower.com/blog/1174-ips-company-blog/page__tag__IPGallery) (in their company blog) about the upcoming version and you will see that this upcoming version is a vast improvement over their existing gallery. Judging from the limited information available, it is possible that it could outperform Photopost Pro in terms of functionality and modern UI. It's some hard to say, but its obvious they are taking large steps forward and they will continue to do so.

Michael P
November 11th, 2010, 07:42 PM
He has posted some interesting items; I'm working on framework for PP4 already and social networking interaction is at the top of my list, as are potential redesigns to the way we do templates (and a redesign of the interface as well to bring a cleaner look), and exploring a mobile skin, too.

I find it interesting they are looking at pulling back functionality, like members albums; I get the whole "simpler may be better", but we're had allot of pushback when we try to take functionality away even if its to try and improve the overall product. Even changing the way we show members photos (into the search area) was a big deal for some users. I can't even imagine the pushback we'd get it we eliminated members albums (or something like that).

The challenge for PhotoPost is not in supporting one product, but in support all products/integrations. We currently have three template sets - PhotoPost, vB3 and vB4. Changing one potentially means changing all and thats 3x the work (easily).

I'm not saying it wont be done - it will, but the complexity for us is much greater when we have to support more than one product. It seems clear to me that IP.Gallery will offer some of the functionality of PRO, but won't have nearly the versatility of it and, of course, will only work with IP.Board.

Alfa1
November 11th, 2010, 08:24 PM
Thanks for the answer Michael. its good to read that template redesign, UI redesign and mobile skin are at the top of your list.

When you mention social networking, then do you consider flickr?

DefenceTalk.com
November 11th, 2010, 08:32 PM
Michael,

Thanks for the update. Flash isn't really SEO friendly so I hope it isn't given priority as it was last time. I would like to see TAGS put into play along with proper img alt text for thumbnails.

Also, I would like to see the medium photo page move UP a little bit and move the clutter (2 bars) going across, to a sidebar. SOmething like youtube did with the videos, the title of the video is so close to the header and video underneath it while other junk like related videos (pictures in this case) are on sidebar to the right. However, I would like to see sidebar as a option for admins to have it on right or left side.

In addition to that, I think being able to show categories in COLUMNS would be a HUGE plus for many folks who have LONG list of categories and it doesn't do justice when you have to show them all on homepage.

Michael P
November 12th, 2010, 09:26 AM
With social networking - I'd like to update our profile area, embed sharing tools, TAGS, geo-mapping (reading IPTC tags, etc).

With SEO - sitemaps and a revisit of the RSS feeds.

With designs - I'm still working on how it might look, again, trying to please everyone but needing to achieve some balance. I'd like to add even more AJAX and I like the highslide.com javascript slideshows. On the main index page - we have the two formats - gallery and forum listing, maybe the gallery layout - do we need a third? Maybe. But, again, the more templates we build the harder it is to standardize them.

I would love to be able to start over with just one template design, but vB3 and vB4 support make that nearly impossible. The number of variations we allow through switches make this a daunting task.

Alfa1
November 12th, 2010, 09:44 AM
Have you thought about using a format that is easily put into a vbCMS content type?
Vaultwiki is working on such an approach for their wiki software. This makes it easier for them to integrate with vbulletin, but also with IPB and XF.

I'd like to push for more jQuery, Motools, GWT and modern interfaces. Similar to Imagevuex (http://imagevuex.com/demo/x2/) and flickr. Highslide was cool many years ago. Please forget about it now.

The most important thing IMHO is more integration. Having two systems that function fully separate is really too confusing and in result members will just ignore the image gallery and post images in forum. I see this on my big board and on the boards of many other admins.

I dont want to have two profiles for my members.
I dont want two sets of member albums.
I dont want to have two functions for new content.
I dont want two search engines.


I want to use vbulletin profiles and have all photopost image gallery functions on there.
I want vb albums and PP albums to integrate or to have one replace the other. But albums need to be on profiles. Possibly they could be both on profiles as in the album listing.
I want the 'what's new' search to show new photos.
I want PP content to be searchable from the vb search engine.

I get millions of users on my boards and many view and post images. But still Photopost is not popular for the reasons above. This forces me and other webmasters to find solutions for this. That is exactly why a vbulletin image gallery is so high in demand.

Michael P
November 12th, 2010, 10:34 AM
For a more integrated vB gallery, you would need to go with vBGallery; that level of integration from PRO just isnt possible given the architecture and need to support as a stand-alone or within the dozen or more other forums we integrate with.

I agree that a flash based galleries looks nice for simple presentations, but when it comes to the complexity of a community gallery, I dont think they scale well and the user experience is lacking (such as the ability to comment on a photo or read photos or have contest categories).

Alfa1
November 12th, 2010, 10:55 AM
What level of integration does vb gallery offer?

When I originally selected Photopost Pro as the best image gallery I could find, I found vb Gallery to be inferior to Photopost Pro in terms of functionality. That was back in 2006. Has vb Gallery changed much since then?

Michael P
November 12th, 2010, 10:57 AM
It has changed and is much more integrated with vBulletin than PRO will even be, but is an entirely different product with its own feature set. It was almost completely rewritten for vB4 as well. What it doesn't do that you were asking about is integrate albums and galleries into one place - I'm not sure how that would even work really. The pain is that the framework of vB4 changes even between dot releases these days, but we're keeping up.

Alfa1
November 12th, 2010, 11:05 AM
I can understand that. Im not going to upgrade any large board to vb4, before their bug count becomes acceptable and it becomes somewhat stable in terms of functionality set and rewrite. Many large boards stick to vb 3.8 for the foreseeable future. It will likely be 4.2 before I consider it an upgrade from 3.8.

Is there a comparison between PP and vbG somewhere?

Swanny
November 12th, 2010, 11:13 AM
I'm excited to hear that the UI might be refreshed / redesigned. In my opinion, the PP products are overdue for an update to the look, which could help bring a more "web 2.0" type look. Something cleaner, with less visible lines, borders, tables, etc. Clean is nice.

With that said, I'm disappointed to hear that this might involve Javascript and AJAX. I don't really have a problem with them but if you add too much code you're going to slow down my 7 installations of your products. Google has already publicly stated that faster sites get a boost in rankings with all else being equal (http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2010/04/using-site-speed-in-web-search-ranking.html).

So don't go overboard on the scripts for the presentation and extra features. Or, offer the option to enable all these extra JS/AJAX scripts, social sharing buttons, etc. Have the "base" install as a good, clean, fast-loading code templates. I care more about a fast site than I do a fancy looking one. And so does Google.

Alfa1
November 12th, 2010, 11:32 AM
I found the comparison, though that doesnt seem very promising as vbG seems to be missing important functions. Is there a demo?

Swanny: JS doesnt have to slow down anything at all. I agree that speed is important.
CDN support would help in this respect. And it would also help reduce our costs.

Michael P
November 12th, 2010, 12:25 PM
There is a demo at: PhotoPost vBGallery (http://www.michaelpierce.com/xforum/gallery/index.php)

As I said, the products are not the same and the features are different, but the level of integration that you are looking for is mostly there with vBGallery. vBGallery is not PRO redesigned as a plug-in for vB.

Integrated profile page: http://www.michaelpierce.com/xforum/members/16-allonge

Steff
November 22nd, 2010, 06:37 PM
the original post was started with the words it seems to me it's kinda grinded to a halt. The blog at the top is very outdated in terms of activity. Photopost seems to be losing it's luster with no new developments mentioned that I have seen. It seems to be falling behind in many areas.

Is there something new on the horizon, or is Photopost slowly heading to the graveyard?
I'm fast beginning to think the same. Days goes by without a response not even an acknowledgement, or suggestion.... support is no longer! Is there a buy out going on with all enthusiasts something like that...Because right now I don't see that enthusiasm

jdougher
November 22nd, 2010, 06:44 PM
It's a dying product, as I see it, supported by the hangers-on. Really it needs tons of work. There must be a way to integrate the product with popular image editing applications to make it easy for folks to add images to the galleries from their favorite image editing/browsing apps: Lightroom, etc.

Steff
November 22nd, 2010, 06:46 PM
I'm beginning to you might be right... just lately I'm getting blanked by support and I have to ask why... I'm paying them after all!

Steff
November 22nd, 2010, 06:49 PM
There must be a way to integrate the product with popular image editing applications to make it easy for folks to add images to the galleries from their favorite image editing/browsing apps: Lightroom, etc.
Alot of the free galleries already do

Chuck S
November 22nd, 2010, 07:28 PM
I'm beginning to you might be right... just lately I'm getting blanked by support and I have to ask why... I'm paying them after all!

From what I see from your posts you have always been answered and not had to wait that long. There is not someone here 24/7 to answer you immediately but there is someone here through out the day. Alot of people get a response within the hour some even minutes after while depending on the time of day one might have to wait a couple hours for a response or overnight depending on when one posts but we always respond.

The product is always supported and always being developed and improved.

Michael P
November 22nd, 2010, 07:59 PM
the original post was started with the words
I'm fast beginning to think the same. Days goes by without a response not even an acknowledgement, or suggestion.... support is no longer! Is there a buy out going on with all enthusiasts something like that...Because right now I don't see that enthusiasm

Can you post links to demonstrate this? This is far from a dying product and remains the most integrated gallery with the most features available for so many platforms. Chuck and I are still here, I'm coming up on 9 years as an active developer for this product.

Steff
November 23rd, 2010, 03:06 AM
I'm not expecting someone on beg and call... but the last few posts have not been answered until now... In two cases the posts had been up for more than two days... Is that reasonable?
In one case I mentioned that I was going to post a support ticket because it was the third day and still no response... not even an acknowledgement.
Clearly guys this thread wasn't started by me but it does show that others are thinking similar things.
The irony of this is that I've had more response from Photo Post from this thread than I have for support the past few weeks.

Steff
November 23rd, 2010, 03:23 AM
@ Michael P
Here is the support ticket: [PhotoPost Sales #AMT-11761-539]: Sales Form: email delays
Here's the thread two days on and no response... nothing at all:
http://www.photopost.com/forum/how-do-i-vbulletin-4-0/144522-email-notifications-partii.html
Here's another that took three days before a response :
http://www.photopost.com/forum/bugs-vbulletin-4-0/144535-ie-cookies.html
Here's another 5 days on and nothing not a thing:
http://www.photopost.com/forum/bugs-vbulletin-4-0/144527-image-views.html

Michael P
November 23rd, 2010, 08:27 AM
Thank you, Steff. Let me try and explain, on the PhotoPost PRO side we have Chuck for support who handles the vast majority of the inquiries (which is the majority of the support requests we get).

On the vBGallery side, it's a little less structured as we depend on volunteers and myself to deal with those tickets. I'll take a look at your open items and see what I can do for you but given the amount of items that are being addressed on a daily basis I don't think it's fair to call us out for saying the products are "dead" - that's just not true. We've continued to offer product updates throughout the years to support all the new releases of vB and struggle to balance the need to almost constantly be updating that product with all these dot releases from vB and handle support.

Steff
November 23rd, 2010, 10:39 AM
I don't think it's fair to call us out for saying the products are "dead" - that's just not true
I don't believe I said that on this thread. I did comment on the fact that some free galleries have more options, but then again they probably have a huge team with lots of resources.
I'm generally happy with PhotoPost, in fact I have more than one copy. What I don't understand is how a commercial software is so reliant on volunteers. Now I know how you structure support for VBGallery I will be a little more sympathetic towards open tickets. Perhaps as I learn more about VBgallery I will not need to ask for support as often. I have no intentions on posting support questions up unless I've already exhausted other avenues like research and so on.
I've had no problems with the quality of support, as it is excellent... my only gripe was that it wasn't there for me when I asked for it.

Michael P
November 23rd, 2010, 05:26 PM
We're a small company, we dont have the resources for more staff than we already have. Not in these times, anyways. Our level of support is directly related to our sales numbers. In good years we had more, these days a little less. But our dedication to product development and support is still very much there.

jalmz
November 24th, 2010, 12:14 AM
Still. the open source software is the best.... hahayz

Steff
November 24th, 2010, 05:38 AM
Still. the open source software is the best.... hahayz Personally I disagree. Photopost is a rock solid script and well coded. I've spent many years using open source scripts and they often have lots of baggage that comes with the scripts. Most notably the amount of patches and security fixes.
Also Open Source projects are often dogged with constant changes to the development and support teams that can have adverse effects on the overall product and its direction in the market. Just as an example of that look at Coppermine or MKPortal. In my honest opinion Open Source is great for a starter script, but as you take your business or website more seriously, commercial is a must. Sure I agree that a lot of "free" software have more features... but I'm comfortable in the knowledge that Photopost scripts are still the best. Better at integration with Vbulletin than any I've seen with any other script and the PP Pro script is incredibly powerful and very versatile.
In fact we've gone from Free software to commercial and now own several copies, and wouldn't dream of stepping back to Open Source....

Chuck S
November 24th, 2010, 07:52 AM
Open Source is fine for people who do not have money but there is an old saying you get what you pay for. There is no support and the coding in general is off in several directions one of the issues you have with multi developers handling the code.

No script is going to have ever feature one wants. I can tell you the next big release of PhotoPost is going to be all about the UI.

Allan
November 24th, 2010, 10:04 AM
Photopost for Xenforo is will be planned ?

Chuck S
November 24th, 2010, 11:48 AM
That is something already being looked into.

Allan
November 24th, 2010, 01:10 PM
That is something already being looked into.
Do you have date to release, demo ou screen ?

Chuck S
November 24th, 2010, 04:01 PM
Xenforo is very early in coding so its going to be a while. There are threads here on the forum on this integration.

1996 328ti
November 25th, 2010, 07:33 PM
Photopost for Xenforo is will be planned ?I would suggest search xenforo and subscribe to the 4 threads and you will learn of any progress.

Chuck S
November 25th, 2010, 07:53 PM
all these long threads seem to get jumbled. The zenforo topic should be towards the top of this very forum general.

Alfa1
December 4th, 2010, 05:46 PM
Please watch this preview video of the upcoming IP.Gallery:
IP.Gallery 4 Overview on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/17439957)

From the limited preview, this seems to surpass Photopost in modernity and the functionality seems to come close to, or even surpass Photopost. The latter is hard to say. But its clear that IPS is raising the bar now.

Michael P
December 6th, 2010, 07:59 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing what IP does; I have a few ideas already in some testing and will continue working on them. PP has held the bar pretty high over the years in terms of integration and features (as well as running as a stand alone); I see the next update having many of the ideas tossed around with a new layout to it. Of course, like with IPs discussions, changing the product and features (as in taking away members galleries) can cause negative feedback from users, so we'll try to balance what we have and how to add new functionality while offering plenty of flexibility.

Alfa1
December 7th, 2010, 07:40 AM
Flexibility sounds good.

Have you considered expanding into video and music gallery?
I do not mean solely making video and music uploading possible (as that seems possible), but providing a system with all the needed features to accommodate video and music enjoyment.

Chuck S
December 7th, 2010, 08:54 AM
The application does allow music and video uploading and embedding and playing inline for most types. We can look into expanding the types that play inline if we can find suitable embedded players. For instance I know we need to add a flash embedded player.

Michael P
December 7th, 2010, 07:11 PM
As Chuck said, we do support video and music embedded into the gallery; heres an example:

Viper Alley - Million Dollar Shoot Video (http://www.viperalley.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/709)

Chuck S
December 7th, 2010, 07:16 PM
Michael we do most definately support video thumbnail extration using ffmpeg. I wrote up the code for you and we added it in the Pro 7.0 release. Too many features to remember ;)

Alfa1
December 7th, 2010, 08:33 PM
I know it is possible to play video and audio, but I think it would be an error to mistake the image gallery software for audio or video software, because the images have been replaced by video or audio. That doesnt make it a handy music player or video directory.

Its probably a small leap from current photopost layout & functionality to a youtube like setup. If users can do anything they can do on youtube and if admins can replicate the design, then I think you are there.

From the current image gallery setup to a music system (SoundCloud - Your Sound, At The Heart (http://www.soundcloud.com) , Last.fm - Listen to free music with internet radio and the largest music catalogue online (http://www.last.fm) , etc) it is a bigger leap in terms of layout and functionality.

Michael P
December 8th, 2010, 08:02 PM
We are an image gallery first and foremost; trying to be everything to everyone is impossible. Hot Or Not, YouTube, Flickr, Facebook, Tumblr - we cant be all of those in one app.

Alfa1
December 9th, 2010, 05:03 AM
It was just an idea, which sprang from the fact that you also provide software for reviews. If thats not an interesting idea to you, then thats understandable.

Michael P
December 9th, 2010, 08:16 AM
Ah, I understand. An off-shot. Got it.

I think we're near capacity when it comes to the number of products we can support, but a multimedia social networking app the integrates with forums is a neat concept.

Alfa1
December 11th, 2010, 08:21 PM
No, I was actually meaning that you could increase / expand the appeal of Photopost Pro, if we could use it as a multimedia gallery.

Alfa1
December 17th, 2010, 08:33 AM
For a more integrated vB gallery, you would need to go with vBGallery; that level of integration from PRO just isnt possible given the architecture and need to support as a stand-alone or within the dozen or more other forums we integrate with.

I agree that a flash based galleries looks nice for simple presentations, but when it comes to the complexity of a community gallery, I dont think they scale well and the user experience is lacking (such as the ability to comment on a photo or read photos or have contest categories).
I have reviewed vb gallery, but I do not see myself using it anytime soon.

Please see if you can think of a way to offer more integration between Photopost Pro and vbulletin.

Chuck S
December 17th, 2010, 09:54 AM
As Michael posted I do not beleive there is anything else we can do to Pro in regards to vb integration for the product it is and what it is meant to do.. vbGallery since it is written specifically for vbulletin only will always be the gallery product that integrates the best style wise.

Couple points.

I wrote up CMS and FORUM plugins for vbulletin 4 which brings alot of the content from Pro into the forum product.

Two things I can see us do in Pro that might help integrate some things better are this

1. I already have hacks posted here that allow profile links to go to vb from Pro. That can easily be integrated into the product in the future but to not lose functionality in Pro users would need to use the plugins I created and posted to bring Pro content into the vb profile since there are alot of stuff like subscription management etc that is in the pro gallery profile.

2. I can see us trying to tweak the vb4 templates more to get better style integration

Alfa1
December 17th, 2010, 07:14 PM
I understand further integration with vbulletin is difficult with Pro. vbG simply is not going to cut it in terms of functionality. So any headway you could make with vbulletin integration of Pro is very very welcome.

Chuck S
December 17th, 2010, 08:31 PM
Yeah there are always lots of thought into what can and can not be done without sacrificing what makes our application stand out.

Like we are gearing up PP8 now and try to handle the best UI changes but making sure we dont hurt what makes our application popular which is the features and extensive integrations.

Alfa1
December 20th, 2010, 05:43 PM
IP.Gallery 4.0 beta is online:
Gallery - Invision Power Services (http://community.invisionpower.com/gallery/)

I think its a very big improvement.

Ramses
December 21st, 2010, 04:58 AM
IP.Gallery 4.0 beta is online:
Gallery - Invision Power Services (http://community.invisionpower.com/gallery/)

I think its a very big improvement.
To be honest, not really a masterpiece, but that's just my opinion.

Chuck S
December 21st, 2010, 07:14 AM
Not trying to be critical here either but never been a fan. I remember there gallery product. This one is suppose to have all these web 2.0 features where are they? Looks very sparse and the look is not at all pleasing on the eye. Lots and lots of empty spacing everything left and right aligned nothing centered. Absolutely no features.

Alfa1
December 21st, 2010, 07:48 PM
I partly agree with you, but there are also features that I am jealous of:

- the 'share this' drop down with FB and Twitter sharing. It nicely hides an array of features.
- the slider navigation bar (on the right here (http://community.invisionpower.com/gallery/image/5652-img-2680/))
- the dynamic rating stars
- the number of comments visible in the image
- quickly toggle between detailed view and overview
- comments activity stream,
- good forum profile integration

Other than that it lacks a lot of functionality and although its UI is much more modern than PP, it could have been a lot nicer. However this is a beta and they are now requesting feedback so they can improve the product.

Chuck S
December 22nd, 2010, 05:33 AM
Well PP8 is going to be all about UI.

http://www.photopost.com/forum/general-discussion/144729-discussion-regarding-photopost-pro-8-interfaces.html

Michael has been playing with a sliding thumbnail bar. To move forward I would think PhotoPost needs to lose some features but thats just me ;)

Michael P
December 22nd, 2010, 06:57 AM
To the features you are writing about, some of those are already in progress, others are planned.

- the 'share this' drop down with FB and Twitter sharing. It nicely hides an array of features.

Currently I'm using AddThis on my sites because I like all the tracking I get with them; but I'll be doing something that does the basics in 8.

- the slider navigation bar (on the right here)

Working on this (per my other thread)

- the dynamic rating stars

AJAX stars in planned.

- the number of comments visible in the image

AJAX scrolling of comments planned.

- quickly toggle between detailed view and overview

On the photo page? They do have multiple sizes per image, but not sure how useful that is really. We also have had a multi-view layout for the gallery pages for years.

- comments activity stream,

I'm not sure what this is?

- good forum profile integration

Easier to do when you only integrate with a single forum.

Alfa1
December 22nd, 2010, 10:06 AM
Michael has been playing with a sliding thumbnail bar.
This slider keeps moving and its hard to get it to stop where you want it. I find it better to let the slider go to the next 7 images, when you click the >> button.

To move forward I would think PhotoPost needs to lose some features but thats just me ;)
Could be worthwhile to send out a survey to all customers and see what functions are unused and what is desired.

- quickly toggle between detailed view and overview

On the photo page? They do have multiple sizes per image, but not sure how useful that is really. We also have had a multi-view layout for the gallery pages for years.
Here: Luke Pictures - Gallery - Invision Power Services (http://community.invisionpower.com/gallery/album/1598-luke-pictures/)
It is indeed similar with the multi-view drop down that Photopost has. I do find a big difference in the way the page loads. With Photopost the wholepage flashes and reloads from top to bottom, while with IP.G only page loading is much more intuitive It almost seems as if you stay on the same page. Its the same with showphoto. The only things I can see loading in IP.G is a few elements and the image itself, while PP reloads the whole page.

- comments activity stream,

I'm not sure what this is?
I saw an activity stream with gallery comments in it, but cant find it for the life of me. Probably because there are barely any comments yet.

- good forum profile integration

Easier to do when you only integrate with a single forum.
True, but a members latest Image gallery uploads and latest comments really belong on user profile.

Alfa1
December 22nd, 2010, 11:20 AM
One thing that I would really like to have and of which I know many people want to have this is: CDN pull zone support.

This would allow us to offload server load to CDN and most importantly it dramatically reduces costs. For me that would be a 90% cost reduction in bandwidth alone.

The trick with CDN is that its best to write the images to your own server, so that if something goes wrong with the CDN, the images are safe. This can be done with a CDN pull zone.

In other words: its needed to write the images to the normal server, but users need to read images from the Content Delivery Network.

Michael P
December 22nd, 2010, 04:09 PM
Here: Luke Pictures - Gallery - Invision Power Services
It is indeed similar with the multi-view drop down that Photopost has. I do find a big difference in the way the page loads. With Photopost the wholepage flashes and reloads from top to bottom, while with IP.G only page loading is much more intuitive It almost seems as if you stay on the same page. Its the same with showphoto. The only things I can see loading in IP.G is a few elements and the image itself, while PP reloads the whole page.

Actually, the whole page does reload between a detailed and overview switch.

Much of what you are talking about is basically part of a UI update, which is something we've been working on. How we do it will likely be very different from how they do it since we offer a different level of functionality, but overall it seems like a decent update to their product for them.